Jen, "Look at all the "Mathmations" we employ. Sounds like "you" should return to school!!! While you're there, take note what the teachers have to put up with, with your little angles. Then tell me they are over paid!!! Walk a mile in their shoes.

Keith, before you call out Jen on "Mathmations" maybe you should look at your "angles" would that be Angels?

What angles do they put up with?

If someone feels they would like to do the job - deal with parents who think their kids are perfect, kids who think they are perfect, parents who want (demand) their kids to get at least a B so their insurance rates lower, kids that don;t know what it means to fail due to their lack of effort, parents who don't sit with their kids and make sure they are doing their best - checking over their homework and quizzing to see if they know the material . . . . . . The list goes on and on.

Education does not stop at 3pm. 50 minutes a day is not enough to cover all the material and study for the kids.

I've been in the profession for over 20 years with many private sector jobs prior. No where else have I had to continually take classes to keep my license. No where else have I had others tell me how to do my job when I'm the one trained. No where else did I spend 8 hours at work - often missing my lunch so I can help a customer then go home and spend another 3-4 hours a night preparing and "grading" for the next day. No where else was I expected to set up labs on my own time, pay for my own equipment because the budget was spent or be expected to teach a subject to someone who does not speak English.

I pay over 9% faithfully toward my pension - those that pay Social security pay about 6. And, I won't collect Social Security. Last I checked, the teacher unions have been begging to be a part of the solution only to be shut out.

Your right, teacher are greedy.

Mark,
You did not mention: "and nowhere else does one get 2 months off of work every year, but still get compensated as if it was a year-round, full time job.

You pose the hypothetical, "if someone else would like to......". As a matter of fact, yes, there is a plethora of young, energetic, vibrant, (and yes, inexperienced I will grant you) teachers who cannot find full time positions, or have been let go due to lack of seniority. Every other career in the world has to deal with continual change, higher productivity demands, and getting more results with flat pay, EXCEPT those jobs that are protected by public sector unions.

Mark, no you won't collect Social Security, because YOU NEVER PAID INTO IT. Just wanted to make sure you understand why you won't collect.

Many teachers worked second jobs and did pay into Social Security, but cannot get most of it due to federal law called the Government Pension offset. Two/thirds of what you earned is deducted because you have a state or federal pension. Therefore, if you worked a second job and earned enough credits to get $600 in Social Security, you will only get $200. Therefore, state workers who pay into Social Security are helping all of you who like to bash them for being "money-grabbing thieves" and undeserving.

Just because I have seen, firsthand, how mistaken identity can provoke problems, I wanted to ensure that this post not be seen as one I authored. That said, I do feel that the salary spiking and pay increases for teachers is part of the big problems that the State of Illinois has. I voice my opinion, starting with the local tier of problems.

And the children get left behind. Test scores have dropped over the last 40 years, both by the teachers and the students. Tie pay to performance. Bring local control back to the local community.

Can one look any were in government and not find corruption? We need to employ term limits and privatize certain areas of government.

You choose to place funds into a 401. Money going into a pension is not voluntary and it is contractual. The employees contribute no matter what. My IRA accounts which I choose to fund is under my control. The pensions are under funded for one reason only. the state did not contribute their portion. The money went elsewhere. Think about that the next time you're in line buying groceries and the lady in front talking on her i-phone 5 whips out the LINK card and puts her food in her new car. There's the pension funds....

I.J. wrong - it is combination of the state not making the contributions and the unsustainability of the benefits themselves. Look at every other state that did fund them and still had to reduce or eliminate some of the benefits because it was no longer affordable. We would be talking about this issue regardless of whether Illinois had made payments because we would still be in the hole. If the politicians your union reps made backdoor deals with stiffed you then go deal with them - leave me and every other taxpayer out of it.

DJP, Democrats, from Obama on down, are working very hard to make this a nation of TAKERS. The more a person is dependent on government, the more likely he/she is to vote for the Democrats. That appears to be a great political strategy, since the party in office has the power to hand out all the goodies. Unfortunately, this scheme is unsustainable, and will eventually bring the nation to ruin.

Excellent comment!

Well said. If you want to have a discussion about making changes to public employee pensions and start allowing them to have their own retirement savings going forward GREAT, but it doesn't change the fact that for decades instead of legislators identifying the problem early and making changes, they kept promising things they didn't care to keep. Whether it is union members or the general public, everyone is getting screwed because there are zero checks and balances in the General Assembly and finger pointing at the wrong group.

Good point P.J We need to get rid of Mike Madigan and his buddies first

Very nice comment, thank you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the powerful public unions use union dues to help elect some of these same legislators you want to be held responsible?

Pesions are fine but not PUBLIC FUNDED PENSIONS!! My kids are in school for 12 years so why so I have to pay taxes for the rest of my life for education along with god damned pensions for teachers!!

Well said P.J. Kneisler!

So ,that means we should stop all other forms of infrastructure improvements and give it to those who are not working. Not too smart.

Kerry- Illinois recently made an award of $10,000,000 toward a "new" Aurora library. Is this a form of infrastructure improvement??? They allready have a library!!!

Yes , it is infrastructure improvement that creates JOBS.

Like i said before and i will say it again. Give money to infrastructure improvements that creates JOBs, not to those who are not working.

Jeff
You make it sound like Unions are the root of all evil. There are many states like Indiana that are fine and they have made the contributions. There will always be a fluctuation in the market, but the lack of funds contributed by the state caused the issue. Secondly, all state and local employees have made concessions regarding the pension obligations and benefits. I don't know what you do for a living but you made your choice based on your eduction and the benefits the job provided. Now change everything because your employer squandered the cash. Feel fair?

IJ - you know what you say is wrong but since it is clear that you benefit from this situation you care more about personal interests than Illinois or the general public (your employers). That is truly what is wrong with this country - when greed overrides a sense of doing what is right for the people which is what the public teachers unions are all about. Is it right to put hardship on families that rely on public services so that you can get a benefits package that is far better than the people paying the bill? It is no different than an automechanic that could stop your car from working unless you agreed to pay them more money. Anyone who participates in that type of behavior is a crook, directly or indirectly. Nobody thinks the teachers are being treated unfairly as is evidenced by the fact that they will not accept a comparable private sector benefits package so this conversation is over.

That civil service moniker is so dated. Most teachers have more education than a private company CEO and others such as police and fireman have ongoing training for their jobs. I think you have the wrong interpretation of civil service. It's not a bunch of uneducated morons with no skills. They are the ones that teach your kids, build your roads, protect you, maintain your water sewer etc..and determine how your taxes will be used. This is a job and a career not servitude. Plus they are out there working 24-7.

Come on IJ, most teachers have more education (I.e. are smarter) than a corporate CEO? If they are indeed so much smarter, then why do they knowingly choose to go into a much lower paying profession? If you say it is because they are trying to fulfill some sort of noble calling, then they should stop bitching about the "low pay". Let's not kid ourselves. If these so called "highly educated teachers" could be highly paid corporate CEO's they certainly would be. I believe in that old adage, "those that can't do, teach".

Independence666- I never said it was a noble calling. What I'm saying is that people secure employment based on their skills and education if it applies to the job. Teachers are a different breed that I too don't fully understand, but, I do believe any of the so called "civil" jobs deserve a fair wage and pension. I would rather my taxes go to services than spent on the un-checked welfare system.

Thank you I.J. your comments are right on.

<<Most teachers have more education than a private company CEO>>
I'm sorry but a BA from Illinois State and a "buy a masters" from Concordia or Chicago State does not exactly count as "more education" than a BS from Harvard or Yale and a Wharton MBA. By that thinking CPS must be better than the Winnetka schools because it has more students....

Good corporations should be doing all they can to legally avoid paying taxes. In fact, that exactly what we ALL should be doing. Like the nation at large, Illinois doesn't have a tax problem, it has a spending problem.

Corporations do NOT pay taxes - all they do is collect whatever taxes are put upon them from the people that do business with that Corporation!! Raise taxes on oil companies = YOU pay higher prices ate the pump. Raise taxes on medical devises = you pay higher insurance premiums. ALL Corporations PASS all tax costs on down to the comsumer. WAKE UP people. Time to Drastically CUT Government Size and Spending!!

"Most corporations pay little or no property taxes"
Where did you get that information?

Seniors and other retirees get away with murder in this state NO state tax on IRAs 401ks, pensions, or Social Security. That is not fair considering they paid no state tax when the money was contributed in the first place.

We have become a nation of takers...........get used to it.

The lawmakers in Illinois want us to be #1!!!

In my line of work I encounter a disproprtionate amount of recent California transplants to Illinois. My boss told me his relatives just moved to Hell-Annoy from California because it's such a mess there. Something is obviously appealing to them here. Is it a conspiracy? Are welfare benefits automatically transferred? Is it the "sanctuary city" thing? 7 years in this state and I've never encountered so many truly lazy people in my professional workplace with dumb-as-a-cluck "diversity" quota inefficiency, the postal service, restaurants, bars, taxi drivers, bartenders and more just expecting cash to be thrown at them for doing little to nothing. It truly is a welfare state. You've got big changes coming. They will be slow but it's happening. Most of the other states have pretty much recovered from the housing market, prices along with wages have been adjusted. I don't care what you media says, the housing here is going to be a MAJOR crash. You've still got people here able to refinance at double what the home directly next door just sold for as a foreclosure. I could give addresses both in the city and suburbs. I've watched this closely mainly because I've wondered what these people are so nervous and concerned about. They're not going to be able to prop Chicagoland with a broomstick much longer.

The downstate Police and Fire pensions have nothing to do with the State as they do not fund them in anyway. Plus the Downstate pensions are not in trouble and the State has no say so about them.

Buford: the police and fire downstate pensions are governed by state legislation, just like the rest of then and yes many are in trouble. Reform them all now or keep falling into the abyss. Go to the Il Muncipal League web site and you will find most police and fire are underfunded for each muncipality by millions.

You don't need 800 school districts to run the schools

Get rid of townships

And also ask union leaders what their pay and benefits are, too.

John, I agree that unions were very useful back in the day, however, they have now become huge extortion syndicates bent on destroying some very good companies. Can you say Hostess? The truth is that, if we're ever going to have any chance at truly growing again as a country, the unions need to be disbanded and tossed onto the ash heap of history.

And the thing with the Mobsters,people might want to try and discredit them but know this...The only Reason there is a Date on Milk was because of Al Capone..Says he remembers drinking spoil milk when he was a kid and hated it.....Unions were formed to fight for peoples rights..And yeah some corruption comes with that..we see that through our Government that was formed to protect the people's rights now don't we?...Wanna work on the Highway for 10 an hour? Workers getting killed every year on the roads,Wanna work on holes that are 15 feet deep for 6 an hour?..Why is there boxes in the ground for the,? the Unions...Ever work on a job site with no bathrooms,or water n the truck in 103 degree heat? Why does there have to be Water and a Bathroom? the Unions...Do you know what 8-8-8 means?...No? It means 8 hrs of work 8 hrs of home 8hrs of rest...Why is this? the Unions,Benifits Why?The Unions,..Anything worked over 8 you are compensated for by better pay because you lose out on one of the other 8...Get it?...you lose out on your family time and sleep time...What do you get for it now being Non- Union...Nothing,nota,zero..you get fired if you do not go along with it,how do you like being fired because you were in the hospital,or got hurt?..Not with the Unions....How do you like not getting your Work comp or unemployment...Not with the Unions..and when you all fight for these again..you will be called a Union..

@independance...Not extortion...Let me explain..Housing..Know why it costs so much?..a typical Job site..The PVC to run the sanitary is Expensive and going up,The cast Iron for Water Main going up,Iron for drains that keep being stolen gong up,no less than 5 machines,..Know why all of these are going up and it costs so much to build?..Fuel..from you foods to your Building materials the cost of the fuel is the harshest on the prices of things...When we have a problem with something there is the Unions who deal with it..Like an owner saying your going to pay him,or going to take something out of your check because something happened..not with the Unions...You not getting your pay docked,your not getting a check with held because you pissed off someone and didn't show up,your not getting punished for being sick,your not getting fired for getting hurt,your not going to work 3 to 5 hrs overtime and not get it...the Unions still protect and deal with these situations everyday from employers trying to do what they can,forgetting there is a Union sometimes and run it like a backwoods rickety setup that gets people hurt,kept from their families..People wonder why so many employers get away with so much bull crap..how many stories you hear of people having problems with employers?..I hear it all the time..and these problems they talk about the workers don't deal with the Unions Do.

John, I'm afraid I half to disagree with you. Today's unions tend protect the lazy, and the most industrious hardest working folks are encouraged to slow down and "work" like everyone else. It is a breeding ground for mediocrity. If unions are allowed to become strong again in this country, more of our best employers will choose to move their facilities overseas, and there go our jobs. Today's unions tend to cut off their noses to spite their faces. They are an interesting part of our history, but have no place in the future global marketplace.

@Independence
the unions don't protect a "lazy worker", they represent a lazy worker, because they have to. If a lazy worker doesn't eventually change his or her ways that worker will be gone.The union encourages all workers to be as productive and safe as possible when doing their jobs.

Buford: the police and fire downstate pensions are governed by state legislation, just like the rest of then and yes many are in trouble. Reform them all now or keep falling into the abyss. Go to the Il Muncipal League web site and you will find most police and fire are underfunded for each muncipality by millions.

Your are correct Buford, the firefighters pensions are governed by law but receive no money from the state. Thats why whenever there are pension reform measures firefighters are excempt. Sure, some may be underfunded but most are very well funded.

They are not exempt they just have better lobbist than everyone else and the Hero status.

Oswegosmarts the State still has no monetary investment in the downstate pensions and can not touch or use any of the monies in the fund. The State only sets pension guide lines on the collection of a pension and contributions. The pension plans downstate are still doing good as the economy is crap. You can blame the towns and Mayors for short changing the plans by not paying their share as required by law. If the pension plans go belly up because of their failure to make contribution, the towns are responsible to then pay the Police and Fire pension salaries.

Dan very interesting to say the least. 45 minutes into it and I thought they were talking about Oswego. I just learned that school districts don't have the option of bankruptcy. The state comes in and restructures the district. There will be no sports and anything deemed non-essential. You'll get your basics, there will be teacher lay-offs along with salaries they deem appropriate. Ask Round Lake how it feels, they've been their once and it looks like they're in it for round 2.

Take some time to watch this, it can apply to any district in this state right now.

Teachers unions, school boards, school administrators and state politicians bear the responsibility. Don't look to the taxpayers to bail public sector employees out of the hole they helped dig by supporting the crooked politicians and unions who promised what could never be paid.

Correct! I paid 9.5 percent of MY salary into TRS every paycheck. I didn't have the choice to invest my money another way. The State of Illinois has been borrowing from the teachers' pensions for over 30 years. Why are teachers blamed for this mess? What kind of pensions are the Illinois lawmakers giving themselves?

You're paying for the builder cutting corners to save a buck.

Eric, we must have used the same builder. The union work was garbage.

It is much more about modern worksmanship and cost cutting. Homes built after the mid-80's are just not built the same. That isn't all about unions; many of the homes built in the last ten years had little to no union labor in some cases. A year later they are falling apart, literally. They were built by small, independent buliders who used relatives or illegals. They would leave many things undone completely, relying on the buyer's inspection to create the punchlist of things to finish. Problem is that they would leave undone anything that not on the punchlist if it wasn't 'caught' by the inspector, even if they KNEW something was left. After a year, it wasn't their problem.
Also, a modern 'brick' house is nothing more than a one brick deep shell around a frame house, much unlike brick houses years ago that were no less than two, maybe three or even four bricks deep. They were built by craftsman, sometimes union, sometimes not, depending on the era, but well built by people given the time to do a job right. Houses used to take a long time to build; now they are done in a couple of months, open to all sorts of weather, built of lesser material (OSB instead of plywood underlay, for instance. Sawdust and glue versus solid wood, which do you think warps quicker or resists wear and water/moisture better?) and by people looking to make the quickest buck, with no pride. These independent builders will bribe inspectors to get things passed that a union worker won't overlook.

BUTCH, they don’t understand. They bicker amongst themselves with trivial details and refuse to acknowledge the 800lb. gorilla looking right at them. Typical in this area loaded with spoiled brat yuppies who have never seen hard times and couldn’t survive one night without their luxuries to keep them warm. Most have no idea what it means to be self reliant. The weak fools will fall like grass under a lawnmower. Pitiful excuses for Americans. When the SHTF they will get what’s coming to them. Looks like sooner rather than later.

Thanks for the chuckle. Martire is nothing more than an AFLCIO/SEIU tax loving liberal shill.

concerned citizen

You are correct. If the State government had funded the retirement each year this would not be an issue. But just like the Federal government and Social security, the state wrote IOU's and stole the money for their Pork Barrel projects. Both the Democrats and Republicians are quilty.

No, and its not right to rely on taxpayers to bail you out after you vote for union leaders who finance campaigns for corrupt politicians either. Politicians and union leaders are laughing all the way to the bank while ripping you off and demonizing the taxpayers. You bear responsibility too.

Absolutely correct TIna, thank you.

You pay 10% but who pays the rest of the funding? (Taxpayers.) I get that you make a small contribution.

I would gladly pay 10% of my paycheck to get a yearly pension of an average of 70% of my last 3 years of work. Where can I sign up for that? I pay into social security and the earliest I can retire and receive a benefit is 62. I know a lot of teachers who retired in their 50s. Where can I sign up for that?

Do you think its right that the taxpayers have to pay you to not work?

I am NOT a teacher, have no relatives that are, etc...I do wonder though, about a few things...Marie, lots of people contribute knowingly or otherwise to politicians that do things contrary to what might be their personal belief. If it isn't a union, it is the company you may work for, or the CEO of that company who contribute large amounts. I'm in a 'trade association' and we pay dues; some of which go to political causes deemed to be in our best interest. Not everybody always agrees with those views, but it is what we signed up for with the big picture of our industry. Every voter bears responsiblity for the mess we repeatedly vote into office. I'm not bailing out teachers, I'm giving them what was promised. They took a job that could possibly pay them better with the education requirements they needed to get the job BECAUSE they wanted a good, solid pension. That was a long-term gamble they took instead of getting more money up front from ALL of us to teach our children how to grow up and be 'anything they wanted'. Some people want that money upfront, some jobs/industries are set up that way. Just as some people pick different withholdings on their taxes. "Public Sector jobs" are very often not paid as well, especially historically. Some people got into it for the 'nobility' of it, but most got into it for the benefits it provided.
Sue J. you ask where you can sign up for this job...college. Make the decision to get your teaching degree and then you can live in 'luxury'.

Bob, I tend to agree. Who needs more than that?They can start with the top 100, who are mostly University Professors: http://www.taxpayersunitedofamerica.org/latest/illinois-govt-pensions-over-100000-up-27-since-last-year

Try dealing with reality, Steve T. Math must not have been your strongest subject. We have fine private sector jobs, thank you; and smart enough to know when we're getting ripped off by politicians and public sector union leadership.

Too bad you were too stupid or inept to BELIEVE the lies that you would live to receive your money.

Some state 'officials' might have that, but I don't know of any teacher retiring to an island anywhere.
Social security was created to provide retirees with additional income in their golden years so they wouldn't be homeless. I'm not sure where you got the notion that people who paid into a pension would be limited.
I agree the state is screwed because we promised money to more people than we should have, but that is not the fault of the people it was promised to, it was the fault of the people who made the promises, and those who voted those idiots and criminals into office. Considering that both parties contributed to this mess (Democratic state Congress and GOP governors for the most part), nobody can really claim innocence.
Remember how the lottery was created to fund education? Whoops. Toll money was just for highways? Whoops again. Bad tax policy, corrupt politicians we keep returning to office; who is really at fault?
People complain about how good the teachers have it, yet I don't people on here talking about being in line waiting to get one of these 'awesome' jobs with such great benefits. Coud it be that they want people to do a job they don't want for less money than they will take themselves for a job already do have (and presumably like more)? Cops are overpaid? To be shot at? Firefighters sit around too much; they should start a fire to then run into to justify their existence? These are the costs of civilization, whether we like it or not.

Pensions are deferred compensation, earned in earlier years.

Seriously? You cannot be a real person, you write as if YOUR teachers should have never received a check.

Fantasy much? I'd like a list of NON-GOVERNMENT employers that will pay a new-hire a pension in 2013. Not too many.

I sure hope all those people that think their pensions will be honored have a back-up plan, because there are many of us paying too much in income tax that are leaving this defunct state. If those that are paying the large share of the tax to those depleted pensions leave, who will cover the deficit?

This country is now run by corporations, and we all know what they prefer to do with their money.

Only 17 of Fortune 100 Companies still offer pensions. that is the cream-of-the crop.

Nancy, there are many who collect pensions and salaries (Suntimes had a big series of articles last year). You hear about the "pension king," the former CR chief of police who had his salary bumped up a couple of days before retiring, pulling in over $100k per year, working now as a school supt. for 100-student school district pulling in over $100k per year, and is a mayor?

When did you start there?

http://reason.com/blog/2010/08/20/only-17-fortune-100-companies

If you are really worked at a fortune 500 co., you must have heard of google? Obviously, you started there a few decades ago. Quite a bit has changed.

Well said

You are exactly correct D Smith. Best comment yet. The grass is always greener for some people.

Agree!

You act like only poor uneducate minorities, who in your book are democrats collect benefits...
"Sending millionaires unemployment checks is a case study in out-of-control spending. Providing welfare to the wealthy undermines the program for those who need it most while burdening future generations with senseless debt," Republican Senator Tom Coburn, M.D. of Oklahoma said in a statement to ABC News. Based on the report from the Senator's office, millionaires received $74 million in unemployment insurance from 2005 to 2009.

Early last year, Sen. Coburn introduced " Ending Unemployment to Jobless Millionaires Act of 2011," which is currently languishing in the House of Representatives, a bill which sought to halt payment of federal funds for unemployment compensation to individuals whose "resources in the preceding year" was $1 million or more.

But millionaires aren't the only individuals to benefit from unemployment benefits. A few other high-income brackets receive compensation from the government. More than 8,000 tax filers making $500,000 to $1,000,000 received unemployment benefit income in 2009 and more than 900,000 tax filers that made $100,000 to $500,000 received unemployment benefit income.

Shocking the bill is failing due to lack of Republican support... Because we all know how badly they want to fix the welfare system...

@Doug enlighten the few and tell us of your contribution to society? Crooked Dem machine state wide or is it part of vast Cook Cnty Dems who give and pay absolutely nothing because their job has been sent to China or India via Mexico. The Cayman islanders are not human and somehow spent one Billion unsuccessfully to steal the last election for POTUS and seemingly when the final results were tallied and the Cayman island precincts were entered Robme went up to 48% from 47 how is that legal?

Did your father work until retirement with the knowledge that one day he would have to actually just keep working because you or some other even more random and arbritrary person decided so? OR...did he take a job long ago under the premise that if he showed up for work for X number of years he could stop working and enjoy a few years of life before he was too infirm to get out of bed? People make life decisions about their career, and then because of circumstances that may be entirely beyond their control, those decisions are overruled because other people need or want to clean up a mess that was not made by those affected? If this was a private corporation and somebody worked at one place for thirty years (for example) and then three years before they retired, having spent a life living comfortable but not wealthy they were told that the money promised them was going to be reduced, or taken away, or that sorry, they have to work another eight years because they look healthy enough to do so, the story would hit the news and the world would be up in arms; and rightly so. Because it is a public employee we the people of this dysfunctional state should go back on our word to those who have done that which we have chosen not to do? What horrible version of society will we leave for our children if THAT is the message? Instead of buckling down to figure out a way to keep our promises we shirk them? Why not just kill people after sixty five and save the whole bundle?

Tom, it would see that this Social Security matter has been a known fact for quite some time. The point is that this state has fallen into a debt hole it cannot get out of while corrupt state politicians, school boards, administrators, and union leaders (and their minions) continue to line their pockets while pretending to care. Taxpayers didn't create this problem, so stop demonizing them, the hands that feed you.

Marie,

The comment about SS was to M&M because they said

"M&M

5:26 pm on Sunday, January 27, 2013

Mark, no you won't collect Social Security, because YOU NEVER PAID INTO IT. Just wanted to make sure you understand why you won't collect."

In many cases, state employes DID PAY INTO IT.

I do wonder why teachers are always the fall guys. What about all of the other state jobs like politician, judges, police, fire, toll collectors... they get a pass and all of the blame is put on teachers. Where's the blame for the state not paying in what it should have been for all of these years?

And look we have the New Core Standards. I know one school that is already teaching it and the parents and teachers are upset because there is no time to spend on the material to make sure the student understands. School/teaching is like a race and don't expect test scores to go up, the parents have all been informed that for a few years,scores will go down.

Marie, First of all,Teachers are tax payers as well. Secondly, they paid their portion. It's the state that didn't pay what they should have. Would you feel the same way if teachers paid into Social Security instead of TRS but the state didn't pay their portion for their workers like other employers are required to do?
Interesting that as a taxpayer you only care about teachers and none of the other state workers because no one has bothered to investigate. That speaks volumes!

Kristie, the entire pension system in this state has to be addressed. What speaks volumes and is interesting is your your incorrect assumption that I only care about TRS and teachers. First of all, I know teachers are taxpayers. Secondly, they did pay their portion from their taxpayer-funded salaries. The fund mismanagement and demise lies with the corrupt union leadership, state mismanagement and local school boards' compensation fiasco, not with me or any other taxpayers. Take the issue up with the unions and with state and local reps - they are the cause.

Marie,
How much would be in the fund if the state had been paying their amount all along?

What would happen to private sector employers that don't pay what they are legally obligated to pay?

Lastly, I'm not sure why you make a point "taxpayer-funded" salaries. There are plenty of private sector companies that get taxpayer-funded money. Take a look at Navistar- $64.7-million, Motorola-$100 million, US Celluar-$7.1 million, Groupon-$3.1
As a taxpayer, I'm helping pay Lewis B. Campbell's $5.76million salary, Sanjay Jha's $104.5 million salary and so on all because of deals that were made by IL politician.

Kristie, actually teachers haven't paid their "fair share" for the pensions and health benefis they receive. "End of career spiking" increases pensions by about 16% over the last four years of a teachers career. They didn't pay for that over their career. It's just a ripoff.

Workers in SSC pay 6.2% directly out of their pay check and another 6.2% is indirectly taken out of their pay by their employers for a total of 12.4%. Teachers only pay in 9.4% directly and the school districts indirectly pay another 0.58% on their behalf for a total of less than 10%.

For a SSC employee making up to $110K, the MAX they get is about $27K per year at age 67. An equally vested teacher at $110K salary would get a pension of about $82.5K at age 60, about THREE TIMES what SSC employees get for a 24% higher contribution.

Please don't give us that "we paid our fair share" BS. To say that you would have needed to contribute 24% more and get TWO THIRDS LESS in benefits!

Bob,

How do you feel about the taxpayers helping fund the salaries of high paid private sector workers? Like Navistar, Motorola, US Celluar...?

Cut Mr. Jha's benefits in 1/2 and they could repay the taxpayers in 2 years.

Kristie, I know you are mad because your union leaders and politicians you thought had your back, actually had theirs instead. Stop blaming taxpayers for the state's completely irresponsible behavior. I am in no way disparaging teaching, but I do take issue with moronic moves by idiotic school boards who neglect their fiduciary duties to the taxpayers and cowtow to administrators and unions by shoveling tax dollars into administrators' bloated compensation packages and hiking up teachers' salaries toward the end of their careers that ultimately become every Illinoisans' responsibility. I've paid you once; I don't intend to pay you again for actions I was not responsible for. Take it up with your state rep and union leaders since they cared so much for you to begin with.

Marie,
I'm not a teacher and I don't have union leaders. I'm just sick of teachers and their union being blamed for the mess that the state is in while EVERYONE else gets a pass.

If the state had an extra $170 million laying around, maybe if they had put it into the pension instead of giving it to these 5 PRIVATE companies, we wouldn't be in the predicament that we are today.

Kristie, what the politicians, union leaders and school boards across this state have done concerning the pension funds is inexcusable, but it has nothing to do with private enterprises. I can only speak for myself, but I know there are many teachers and administrators who really cleaned up because of the shenanigans by their respective boards, the unions and politicians, and there are many union leaders and politicians who have clung to their positions by garnering teachers' votes.

Marie,
The state is broke and we have the lowest credit rating but yet we had $170 MILLION to give to these 5 private companies. I'm sure that the taxpayers gave more to other companies as well but it's just easier to put all of the blame on the big, bad teacher and the union and hide our head in the sand about everything else.

So yes, private enterprises do have something to do with the problem of the state's finances.

Maybe this touched a nerve. Do you work for one of the companies that got taxpayer-funded money?

Kristie, absolutely everything needs to be on the table. It's not either/or, it's all-the-above.

"How do you feel about the taxpayers helping fund the salaries of high paid private sector workers? Like Navistar, Motorola, US Celluar...?"

No better than I'd feel about a welfare momma collecting welfare checks for spreading her legs for guys to make babies and put them on the guv dole! Today in Illinois that's as much of a "white" problem as a minority issue.

We shouldn't be subsidizing ANY businesses in Illinois. If we have the right labor rates, freedom to accept or reject collective bargaining, transportation and an honest, well managed government service delivery system, we wouldn't NEED to bribe big business campaign contributors to come or stay here.

Christine,
The majority of teachers do not stop working at 3:00pm. If they're not in their classrooms, they very well could be at home grading papers, preparing lessons, shopping for supplies...

I pay a lot of taxes to services that I don't use. I've never had a fire, never needed to call an ambulance, never been in an accident...so I guess the firefighters should be thanking me for the paying their salaries and benefits but not utilizing any of the services.
Same goes for tollway workers since I don't drive the toll roads, forest preserve workers and many other public employees where I don't use the services that they provide.

Frankly show me a teacher that does not teach for the money. I don't think you will find many. I know my husband uses it to pay the mortgage and buy food.

Not in Tinley and Orland, or Oak Forest.... End of story......

Agreed. Go down south oh, let's say Springfield, depending on their location and the education they make as little as $30,000 a year and possibly as high as $45,000. I hardly call that a booming salary. Teachers are underpaid in many many counties in Illinois.

Concerned,

Do you consider $41,000 overpaid?

Concerned... I already ended the story, so you can't re-end it... Now if you want a sequel, the that's fine... Teachers, as a whole, are underpaid in TP, OPK, and OF... End of story.

Chronicle of Bob
'Concerned... I already ended the story, so you can't re-end it... Now if you want a sequel, the that's fine... Teachers, as a whole, are underpaid in TP, OPK, and OF... End of story.'

What are you, three years old? You already ended the story so I can't comment on it. Ha, ha!!!

The majority of teachers in District 230 make over six figures. I don't know where Tom comes up with $41, 000!!!

Concerned,

I got that figure from the Oak Forest school district web site. A copy of the contract is available there. The starting salary is $41,000.

Where did you get the information that the majority of teachers in 230 are making over $100,000? Since 230 is a High School district, do those figures you're quoting include stipends for sports, clubs...?

Tom and Bob, ALL district 230 teachers who are 30 hours past a masters with 20 years of district experience are paid $120,000 for 177 work days. They don't have to meet any student performance or evaluation criteria to get this princely sum. They essentially do the same job with the same number of classes as a new $41,000 per year teacher does.

At the age of 43, a gym teacher with that education and experience is paid a FAR higher rate than engineers, engineering MANAGERS and most small business CFO and CEOs.

A culinary arts teacher at that level is paid more than most executive chefs in fine restaurants, and top professional culinary arts colleges.

If you don't think that's overpaid, you know NOTHING about compensation market value and comparable worth!

Bob,

Actually, according to the contract, the salary for a teacher with 20 years, a master's degree + an additional 30 hours is $116,540. But contract also says " **The above scheduled amounts include the Board’s sheltering of teacher contributions to the Illinois Teacher Retirement System as provided in this agreement."

So when you're comparing salaries, be sure to add in the amount that employers pay on behalf of their employes as well.

Tom you are out of touch with the real world. You think teachers are the only ones who take work home? As far as the taxes you pay for nothing let me say that the taxes you pay to cops and firemen are a pitance compared to what is paid to the schools. By the way , you dont pay taxes on the toll road if you dont use it. It is a TOLL ROAD.

Kerry,
I'm not out of touch. Christine was the one that said that teachers only work until 3:00pm. I'm sure that she's not the only one that think that's true.

As to the taxes paid, check the facts before you say I'm out of touch.

Tollway workers pensions are funded by the taxpayers under the State Employee Retirement System (SERS). Since they are public, their salaries and pensions are also public. There are people making 6 figures and have estimated lifetime pensions of over $3 Million funded by the taxpayers of IL. So as I said, taxpayers that don't use the toll system are still funding the pensions of the workers.

Agreed... Cops are underpaid... End of story...

Pffhttt IL has more depts than the fed... Awarding state jobs creating new laws for state enforcement is a well played racket
Since no one else has the guts or sense to say it ALL these pensions in IL must be reduced by1/2 to 2/3rds ... Beyond that 2 pensions max (prorated) Pensions will be taxed From Edgar down to Janitors... There is no other way .. triple property tax ....wont cover it etc etc etc...
IL Works The city that works .... Be careful with that analogy as it has become a reference to some underhanded dealing...
The point.... Nothing beyond some incredible new boom will remedy this state as is .... The gambling money is not unlimited the well is going dry ....(more than junkies gambling addicts beg for money ,even if they are millionaires no joke) New tricks or New outrages from lawmakers??? New waves of fines or special taxes ??? They will go after each other.... Its what Vampires and piranhas do

@ Bob L this is a perk that Madiggon, G RYAN, EDGAR and big Jim previous allow the royalty like Judy or Berrios extended family members ,the Mells and the big looters lechowicz and the locals who get County-City and Township paychecks they are under the radar for a good reason, they are usually not capable of fooling a lie detector IF IT COMES TO THAT..

Tom , evidently you dont know that teachers income are public knowledge. The incomes are published in the news paper as required by law.

Kerry,

Apparently you don't know that tollway workers, firefighters, judges, police officers... also have their information available to the public as well.

The top SERS pension is over $184,000 a year and that person has collected almost $1.5 million in pension so far. But of course, it's all the teachers fault that the state is in this financial crisis. You might be surprise to know that many of the top 100 SERS worker retired at age 50.

Right Bob. Why are we attacking the people that keep us safe and teach our children? Go after the government. Did they ever put out a fire, go after a criminal or spend hours teaching a class of 30 and then be put down for it?

Tom, YOU are out of touch. You did say that. You are not correct about the pensions. You are also not correct about ss. Teachers can and do collect ss.

Kerry,
Since you say that I'm wrong, please tell us what teachers in IL collect Social Security? Have you heard about WEP or GOP?

You have blinders on if you think that all of the blame belongs on the shoulders of teachers and their union.

@Ag BYE people just go to paradise to die not live,
been there few of us none can afford it since they drove all the illegals out no more slave labor either!

Tom ,i do know that all employees paid by tax dollars is public info. We are focusing on teachers here. You are trying to change and divert attention from the topic at hand.

Kerry,

The topic at hand is that the state of IL has the lowest credit rating.

You want to blame that only on teachers. Why not the SERS employees that are collecting huge salaries and pensions as well as all of the other state workers?

Maybe it touched a nerve with you that there are a lot of people in IL besides teachers that collect a salary and pension that are taxpayer-funded. Could you be one of those people and now you're upset that the focus may shift from teachers to these other groups? Or do you just hate teachers so much?

Kerry,

I know that you're focusing on teachers only but why not focus on EVERYTHING that has caused the state's credit rating to sink to the bottom?

Do you believe that state level employees collecting pensions of 5 figures a month have nothing to do with the state's financial problems?

What about court reporters having a salary over $100,000? Or plumbers making over $100,000?

These are all people paid for by the taxpayers and will and do collect pensions.

Chronicles of Bob,

I think you meant to direct your comment to Bob,not me. My comment was in reply to the one he made about teachers being overpaid.

100K for a bunch of overpaid babysitters is crazy. No kids from D230 going to Harvard. Based on their number of working days per year and the standings of the D230 schools these salaries are thefts of the tax payers. They aren't worth half that.

There are millions of unemployed teachers out there who would work for half of what these fat people are making.

Grade schools here are paid way off the charts too.

What is not known is that many teachers continue to get very very large sums in retirement . Over 100k in many cases for hS teachers. And the public takes it on the chin.

$100k for 185 days a year work - not too shabby. Check your local school districts to see just how many taxpayers actually PAY the 9.4% TRS contribution FOR THE TEACEHRS. I know Lemont 210 and 113a do. Don't even get me started on the whopping $140/mo, full family medical coverage. The only good unions do is take union dues from their flock paychecks and line the pockets of the union bosses, contribute to special interests groups and politiicians. It is legal organized crime. I know plenty of people in the union who openly admit it too.

That is true.
Not too long ago, I was in line behind a lady at Meijer in Bolingbrook. She had a full set of nails, designer clothes/shoes and was talking on an iPhone. She pulls out her LINK card to pay for her groceries. I walked out of the store shortly after her. Imagine my shock when she gets into a new Ford Expedition that has a vanity license plate that reads "Y WORK" and a number.

Apparently she's very proud that she knows how to "WORK" the system.

You are a disgrace to all of the hard working taxpayers.

Let's take into account also that teachers who work in many of these districts are trying to teach students who have serious family issues at home. If you want to blame anyone about subpar scores, look at the parents. If a child can't come to school without even being fed by their parents, do you really think that a teacher who sees them for 40-50 minutes per day can have a huge impact on their scores? Say thanks to national legislation put forth by non-educators (re: No Child Left Behind) that landed us in the predicament of graduating students who cannot read.

The public schools feed students, counsel students, screen them for hearing and vision tests, provide transportation, and in some cases even provide showers for students (where available) who do not have the opportunity to bathe at home. If you want to say that all teachers do is babysit, you're extremely ignorant. Stop comparing the teachers of YOUR childhood to teacher's today. Many things have changed in education, but the biggest factor in whether or not a child will succeed has always been and will always be their parent/s' role in their child's life.

That's a great idea.

Openthebooks.com also have data files for firefighters, police, state level employees, county, forest preserve, CTA, Metra, PACE, water....The highest state level employee is collecting over $15,000 a month in pension. The highest state elected official is collecting over $17,000 a month in pension. Judicial is over $15,000. Water is $17,000. These are pensions.

You might be surprised to see what the current employees are collecting in salaries. How do you think that the pensions will be funded for all of these workers when they retire?

According to this site, over 1000 public school retired employees receive a monthly pension of $10,000 a month. The guy ranked number 5000 from the top was still making $7900 a month and the lady in spot 10,000 was at $6945 a month. WTF!

These figures are shocking: What would it cost to buy an annuity that would pay a 60 year old person $100,000 per year? the simple math adds up to $100k x 25 years = $2.5 million. Show me a teacher who has put $2.5 million into TRS (even assuming all state contributions were made) and I'll show you the Easter bunny and Santa Claus on a double date....

Juvenal,

The top earning "teachers" are not really teachers but superintendents and administrators.

One day there won't be any teachers because they will be tired of all the criticism. My husband says if he had to do it over again he wouldn't and he discourages any person headed that way. You would be surprised how many teacher drop outs there are. They work one year and find out it is not worth the money.

"one" of the authorities, sp

Andrea, teaching them ourselves is exactly what 60,000 (and growing) homeschoolers in IL are doing, and obviously not for the money. Most of us really enjoy it. Our kids are quite well adjusted because of it. I worked in the private sector for 20 years, have a Master's degree and gave up my career to educate my kids. Best thing we ever did and I highly recommend everyone who can do the same. We live tight. No BMW, Coach purses or luxurious vacations, but what I have is priceless: time with my kids to teach them about the world. We do just about everything as a family and we love it. Keep in mind I know exactly how much money it takes to educate. It's FAR less than school districts claim. But I also don't pay for fancy building or teacher salaries and pensions. Well, actually I do still pay for those things with my property taxes, they just don't benefit MY kids.

Tina, data was just released that showed Illinois colleges of education are graduating about five teachers for every new public school teaching job opening up. If the failing old teachers don't like the idea of being paid market rates for their labor, there are five ambitious, hungry, new graduates to take their place!

Of course, once they start looking for a new job and see how weak their job skills are for the most part, and what's expected of an employee for what they were making as a public school teacher, I suspect they'll be beating a path back to that old classroom!

Where do you live?

Exactly, Walt. Where were the union leaders? With the politicians.

No disgrace at all. They cant make someone pay when they dont have the money

cost of living in springfield much lower probably.

overpaid

For 180 days a year, with substantial job security, and you'll end ending up with a pension that would require a present cash value of a couple million dollars to duplicate in the real world. The "underpaid" meme is so 1980....

Agreed... Especially if you are talking about grades k-8...

Right, Nancy. Just look at those "affluent" distircts like Oak Lawn 229, where 36% of the kids are low income. Their avearge salary is $92,938 for about 180 work days. The average teacher experience is on 12.4 years. The top scheduled teacher salary (without "extras" like coachiing, summer school or club sponsorship) is about $132,000 per year.

How about District 218 (Richards, Eisenhower,Shepard)? The average salary there is $84,920 for about 180 days and the average experience is about 10.7 years.

BTW, there is NO performance criteria for getting this salary. As long as you keep showing up for work, don't have an affair with a student, and don't commit a felony ON CAMPUS, you get that sum as an "entitlement".

If you're calling Alsip, Robbins, Blue Island, Cal Park and Worth that feed those schools "affluent", you certainly have a strange definition for the term.

Give us an example of a large district you consider "underpaid", Nancy. How much should a tenure protected, ineffective K-8 or HS teacher be paid for failing to successfully teach their students??

As a whole they are all underpaid for what they do for our kids. There are bad teachers just as there are bad anything...

Yet, did you vote republican? Did ya call obama a socialist? I thought with all of these tax cuts for 12 years that private sector would vreate jobs...

Actually, COB, the home schooled kids are typically the highest achievers academically and most active socially. Sports? There's plenty of quality club teams out there that are better than most in public schools. AAU for basketball, traveling team soccer, youth football and baseball, etc.

Music and Art? Often home schooled kids have private lessons and join community and church bands and choirs and outperform their public school peers.

There are some "social" things they miss out on....they're never forced to tolerate student and faculty bullies in their schooling, it's unlikely they'll be coerced into using drugs through peer pressure, and they're at low risk for the disease cesspool that public schools have become (flu, colds, STDs, etc.)

You really don't know anything about homeschooling, do you COB?

Thanks Bob... You showed me so much. You are a walking pool of knowledge... I didn't know that going to a public or private school could be so bad for you. Thanks for the information.

It's great that you can afford to home school your students (although you do receive a tax credit for that around $6,000 for one student last time I checked), that's not realistic for the majority of the country who need both parents working, if both parents are even around. Because you only have two students in which to educate, your job is considerably less intensive. Think about the grading, the feedback, the differentiation, the medical or physical issues, the parent issues, etc. that teachers in public and private schools deal with. For you to say that you teach 6 days a week, year round with two students and compare that with teachers who teach 150+ is ludicrous. I get and understand that you don't want to be burdened financially by students who you do not care about or have any interaction with, but don't compare 2 students to a full case load.

COB, the problem is that what Obama allowed to reduce tax burdens he took away with bad legislation and regulatory burdens to restrain growth.

It's a testament to private enterprise that w've had the growth and profits that we have.

Here's one instance of how the Dems and Obama are poisoning the economy.

I have an apartment building I was looking to sell in the last few years which, based on return on investment, should've been selling for about $400,000. There area buyers who would pay that if they could get financing. If I sold it, I would be paying a $1500 fee to the village, a state/county transfer tax of about $3,000, a capital gains tax to the feds of about $38,250, a state income tax of $12,750, a broker fee of about $20,000 and a lawyer about $1500.

Everybody would have won this transaction, but Federal banking policy through Dodd-Frank prevented it from happening.

Dodd-Frank, you see, put such heavy restrictions on this kind of borrowing that banks are making NO loans for apartment building sales.

Taxes aren't the problem, The economy isn't the problem. Bad law created by Democrats is.

Multiply this restriction to the economy, multiply by about 100 million to see the impact on the real estate, energy, and small businesses, and you'll see why we now have the longest string of high unemployment and low labor force participatin since FDR was President and destroyed the economy.

So fdr was destroying the economy as well.... your hilarious.... id say you made a bad investment... just as many of these crooked ass banks who deal with teorrists... and niw want someone to blame and bail you out... stop complaing... thats all i ever hear you do on this site... bitch about everything...

I never said the schools were bad. I said I'm tired of paying for inflated salaries and pensions for all public employees. I never said people are making a mistake sending their kids to school. I did, however, state what our family does, and it includes sacrifice. COB you have no idea how much experience I have with teachers, so I suggest you keep your unfounded opinions and character assassinations to yourself.

Right.... you didn't mean to imply anything by bringing up bmw's, purses, all the sacrifices you make, inflated teacher salaries, and all the priceless time you get to spend with four kids....

COB, you don't know me IRL so I understand your ignorance. I say what I mean and mean what I say. I don't imply things. Ever. Why do liberals take everything out of context and slander to make their points? My family's sacrifice to home educate does not disappear because you said so. That sacrifice also does not blot out the sacrifices of others, be they teachers or others. I AM tired of paying through the nose. We are discussing teachers who claim they teach because they love it, but then have their hands extended. If that money actually did go to buy materials for students, people wouldn't have such a problem with it. However, it goes into checking and pension accounts. Don't tell me how it's for the kids when it's lining your own pocket.

I agree that some teachers spend some of their own money on students. That's not the point. Your position is nothing but a straw man argument and holds no water.

What proof do you have that teachers spend their own money on students? Why should they? They are provided more than adequate supplies, teachers aides, parent volunteers.

We're tired of hearing this nonsense,

Concerened,
You need to enter the actual world...

! Brian W, lots of work and a start the first two points are cast in stone the third however has to be adjusted noone in this state beyond administrators and corrupt pol's believed they were going to be able to loot the system as these pensions are now generously provided and the stae constitution can be amended as such.
And we should do it by that means a State Convention these bozo's of Madigoon and Cross are not going to achieve a thing and u say it best in the next point any changes and I would add to all pensions including double and triple dippers should apply to ALL PARTICIPANTS.

Sounds like a pretty good job when you consider many people, including my husband, work a 12 hour day (every single day), outside in the scorching heat and freezing cold, avoiding 600 lb. pound steam burns and falling down 6 flights of slicks stairs, and often are forced to work 18 straight. Add in swing shift for over 20 years and teaching sounds quite good.

Your so full of it I can smell you from here!

First of all, concerned, your use of "your" is possessive when it should be the contraction "you're" ("you are"). Second, your comment has so bearing on the conversation or the real world.

The first part of your post betrays a barely concealed contempt for your students and their families, and then you say teachers lova and adore their students and jobs. Which is it? Everyone knows that 1) many teachers burn out -- it sure sounds like you have, but 2) between tenure and the fat pensions awaiting them, to say nothing of their job prospects in the real world, the bad ones never leave ...the system

Nope. No contempt here. Unless, of course, you include corrupt politicians. Then, yes, I have contempt, but only for those lying thieves. I just don't appreciate hearing how teachers' job are so terrible when many, many people work in physically dangerous conditions every day. Your average teacher does not. (Yes, urban schools are an exception, but they are not the norm.)Ask a coal miner their opinion.

Christine, if you're (you are) going to grade a persons post, before you hit the submit button you should double check your (posessive) spelling. your comment has so bearing? DOH

possessive. guilty myself.

@Christine why is hubby wasting his talents? I did that routine of working 15 and sometimes 24 hr's and 12 off for years very few of my co workers are around to smell the coffee, none got to Fla to die they did it here usually on the job!

oxygen does that to u!

Nancy, the reality of real estate in Illinois in general is quite sad--agreed. Rockford was hit hard and also unemployment was high there. I looked up my former home from the 1990s and prices on homes are back down to that level yet the taxes and cost of living are way, way up in IL. Many states are experiencing this yet the disparity between the usury amount of state and highway taxation with the lack of jobs and the market is deplorable. Illinois is a large, mixed bag of problems. Back to the original thread...I find it very interesting that some of the dialogue on this thread turned into a blame game. The media has put out the same thing with each party pointing fingers. What if we all stopped pointing fingers and put our foot down and said no more....and took action? And, if an individual cannot change the state of Illinois what alternatives are there? Fight it, rally against it or leave it. If people start leaving for better jobs and a better economy (which they will...Illinois is losing residents) then the state will be socked even more. There are other states with jobs, cheaper to purchase homes and good schools.

You know, Brad, I have fought the idea of a third party for forever. But, I am now convinced that it's the only way. Republicans lost because they'll sell out to anything and anyone. At least with liberal Democrats people know what they're getting. They'll fight to the death for things they believe in (like abortion, assisted suicide, huge entitlements, etc.) I don't agree with any of those things, but the Republicans never do what they say they will. I loved Ron Paul (except for maybe his foreign policy) but I knew he'd never take the nomination. Rand may have a chance, but I don't think he'll leave his current party. I also don't think a third party could make any difference in 2016.

I think Ron Paul and his son Rand Paul may be the only ones serving in the House and Senate right now that have the right idea. The problem with Ron Paul is that he a lot like Ross Perot. He is RIGHT and KNOWS what he is talking about, but he is not generally accepted because his views are so correct that people see them as EXTREME now-a-days. Remember how extreme Perot's views were in '92? If you read his book that came out in '88, everything he said came true. As far as his foreign policy goes...I'm a veteran and proud of my service, but he is right. Foreign intelligence is the key in this day and age, as it was in the Cold War. Spending billions and causing the deaths of thousands, while forcing them to fight with one hand behind their back, is not the way you win wars. When Presidents started dictating wars based on politics (starting with Korea) and not allowing generals to run the wars, we put ourselves in a position to never finish the job right and to not win. Look at Iraq. 9 years of bloodshed just so we could pull out and the Chinese could sweep in and benefit financially from our work. Afghanistan will be no difference, the Chinese and Russians are already in there securing gas and mineral rights. It's disgusting. Of course this is what happens when men and women who have never done anything but be a politician call the shots. A third party needs to happen to pry away from the machines of the GOP and Democrats.

COB, this isn't really the forum to discuss those topics. Baiting isn't necessary.

Baiting? your passive agressive insults are non-stop... Trust me, I'm quite sure I know your position on said topics...

COB, you've insulted me and others repeatedly. Don't have time for that. You are correct that special interest groups are a huge problem. Unions are number one on that list. Do not assume you know anything about my position on the topics you mentioned. I am not passive aggressive. I choose not to insult people, even those with whom I vehemently disagree.

I've never insulted anyone on here... I may have used selective adjectives to describe them... But insults, no... And yes, you are passive agressive... I never said it was a bad thing... You are the one that brought some of those issues up...
And Unions are not the problem... Some Unions leadership is the problem... The majority of it's members are no different than the majority of the NRA.. Good people...

Agreed.

I believe it's all of it. I also believe things are exactly the way politicians want them. If they wanted accountability, frugality, and common sense small government, then that is what we would have. Sadly, it isn't.

Considering you just blamed the media for the GOP losing the election and Democrats for everything wrong because we are 'knee-deep' in it, I imagine you will be out golfing and not one of the 'no-blame' Americans that will be sorting anything out.
The GOP ran a bad candidate, ran a bad campaign, had no better plan than the incumbent (which was saying something since the incumbent didn't have any, really), and created bad press even at their own fundraisers.
Since the election, gay marriage and gun control have been all over the news, and will continue to be. Not sure how human rights and senseless murder are not issues that cannot at least be talked about WHILE the financials are also talked about, but it is D.C. and the politicians can only eat dinner with one lobbyist a night it seems.
As a centrist I really like some of the conservative ideals (death penalty, staying out of foreign wars except defensively, fiscally responsible government), but between bad policy decisions and some bad platform points, they are trying to push themselves off a demographic cliff and they won't need the media. I like some Democratic ideals too, but they cannot get out of their own way for more than three minutes to pass anything, even stuff they agree about...of course, the same could be said for the whole of Congress. This is the worst Congress in both corruption and gridlock and futility in the last hundred years, perhaps in our whole history.
As voters we can only blame ourselves.

Is it in Palm Beach or St Pete?

Organizing was the only chance people had.... it brought us fair wages.... sundays off and family leave... etc.... now its under attack because people would rather believe our 2 nd amendment is under fire, when its not... i agree there are some greedy and corrupt union leaders, but what happen In wisc lastyear is a bigger threat than gun control.

Chauncy does the 10-20% count the three months off, and winter and spring breaks? I see more people who own a business working for free than I do teachers.

DHD - now you can debate hourly salary if you want, but in WI, most teachers make far less than in IL. Let's say $50,000. That is for 190 days, 180 of which is contact with kids. 190 x 8 hrs = 1520 hrs. $50,000/1520 = $32.89. These people have Master's degrees in general, and about 15 years experience. In other words, the contract does not include summers, when teachers are not paid.

So imagine a police officer, a farmer, an accountant - anyone - who works an extra 2 hours per day for free, with absolutely no chance to make more money for doing so.

And you really did not explain who anyone in the private sector ever works for free. I'll let you think for a while, and then you get back to me.

COB, the eight hour workday and weekends off was not the work of union organization. I'll give you one guess who developed those ideas and incorporated them into his business. Yes, it was Henry Ford. He wanted to attract better employees. This occurred 30 years before the UAW existed. Check out the $5 workday section of this wiki. Fair wages come from competition, not from union organization. All unions do is raise the cost of living for everybody.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford

Late to the party and catching up on the comments, but I am confused by the challenge. +50 hours of work for 40 hours of pay on a weekly basis is the norm for every management position at my company. Promotion would be nice, but is never guaranteed. It is more a function of having to do more work with less resources. I am not here to debate teacher's pay, just wanted to say that other people do put in extra hours of work without compensation.

I realize this doesn’t fit into your small government, anti-union narrative but Henry Ford is not responsible for the 8-hour work day. Unions were. Go back and read-up on your history. This fight was happening all through the 1800’s long before Henry Ford. Furthermore, states with strong bargaining laws and high union membership have better access to healthcare, live longer, have better retirement packages, and have higher wages. This includes ALL residents not just union members because union wages push up all wages. You can hate on unions all you want but you don’t get to make up your own facts.

1toomanytickets - I understand that promotion is not guaranteed, but it is possible. Or more importantly, it is impossible to get a promotion for working strictly 40 hrs/week. As Lloyd Christmas said in Dumb and Dumber 'so you're saying I have a chance'. Teachers work extra hours on a daily basis (almost all - again I'm using WI teachers as my reference point) and they have a zero chance of being promoted for those extra hours, and a zero chance of getting more money for that extra work.

Even a priest who spends extra time outside of Sunday talking to parishioners has an increased likelihood of attracting some new cash in the coffers when it's time collect the tithe. That buys more candles, more organs, more property to build more churches on, and may get that priest promoted to bishop. I don't actually know how clergy are paid, but there is still incentive to work harder - and reap what you sow as the old saying goes.

Teachers - for the most part - do it for the kids, and because there is virtually no way to finish your allotted work during an 8 hr day. Planning, grading papers, presenting the material, plus recess duty, hallway duty, lunch duty, staff meetings exceeds 8 hours, trust me.

Some old fools have more nerve than brains for risking their lives and fortune so that yuppie lobbyists can insult them, in WWII these were the men and women who are the greatest generation and whatever or whoever bred u are the worst!

DHD I would be embarrassed if I were you. First of all most seniors at retirement status are still working, paying into SS because of the 40 million that don't. That means if you are not a senior they are still paying into it for YOU!!! Last realtor I spoke to said her last 4 sales were from retirement age folks, buying a home and gladly paying property taxes to support the school system when they have NO CHILDREN! Sounds like bad people to me. Yep they're getting away with murder in this state. Let's see, when you're a senior you're going to want to live in a state run nursing home. That's good, you will have deserved it.

62.1% of seniors age 55-64 are still employed in Illinois, while only 2.8% are unemployed. I hardly think they're living off the state or cheating any of you on taxes. A lot of these people age 55-64 are recipients of the market crash and of company losses such as in Lucent. I personally know several that lost everything, now working full time @ Target just make ends meet. Your comments are unexceptable.

Nancy,
Unacceptable lol. I know just as many seniors who are taking out 80-100k out of their retirement plans each year and paying $0.00 IL income tax. While they paid $0.00 IL tax on the wages that were contributed to the plan. I retract wanting to IL tax Social Security, however IL could easily tax IRAs 401ks pensions by making the contributions taxable. Some states already do this such as Pennsylvania. That would mean no tax would be due on distribution. These plans need to be taxed either at contribution or distribution.

I don't get your issue with 401(k) taxation. This plan is a retirement savings account. They are defined contribution plans, with annual contributions limited, currently $17,500. Contributions are tax deferred, deducted from paychecks before taxes and then taxed when a withdrawal is made from the 401(k) account. There are several tax consequences but no one gets away from paying federal tax on a withdrawal.... unless you are saying seniors should pay twice??? State and federal???

Yes they should pay IL income tax once, either at contribution or distribution. Many states such as Pennsylvania already do not exempt contributions from state income tax. IL should do the same.

In a pure libertarian-sense, I agree that the benefits should be taxed once. Why should the government subsidize these retirement funds? Make the tax system flatter and broader - and lower - but get rid of all the loopholes. The government creates bubbles - financial world, education, housing.

I totally disagree. The fed tax rate is 20-30% some pay more depending on their income level. I'll tell ya what, when I ran my mown company, I started the plan as a way for employees to somehow save for their retirement. It wasn't a way to make the state richer. Those that were investing were hard core bonds and certificate buyers, they took a chance and went with a 401(k) plan because of the tax breaks. After the tabacle with the market crash 401(k)'s took a dive. A lot of people have never recovered and alhough you may know a few that are living luxurious lives most aren't.

I worked for three decades for the same co and expected to retire to the Caymans, but could not afford the rent at the mail box after the pension east then south, first to the Guaranteed pension Corp and after that the 401 went by way of Bushevikomics!
REMEMBER BUSH campaigning just before the crash he wanted Lehman and Goldman to get their circumcized hands on SSA along with 2012 crooks RYAN -TWIT never forget they are the 21 st century robbers and will never stop in their attempts to loot the SSA TRUST fund.

Thank you, Chauncey, saved me a post.

And no one cares if the state invests in a foreign nation NO LOCAL BANK or BANKS can handle the load! Back to the circus, the next governor will be a banker (Bill Daley) CITI BANK who along with GOP treasurer Judy Topinka will insure that TEL AVIV central bank keeps getting the monthly deposits. This is a topic that usually is edited and deleted by NEO TPARTY and DEM'S in hock to AIPAC STOOGES, who cares if the YIDDISH bank pays less interest than a local or even Islamic bank because it is only a down payment on what they loot!
Once a post on every thread I am accused of getting high this whole BLOG is over medicated and heavily censored.

@Dave W
They do and have my boy they are extending the retirement to 67 then 9 and then oh they gone! If it was 62 more people could die without their boots on and more jobs would open up Oh what a socialist concept!
Remember when the ACA was first being debated Alan Grayson D FL said" the GOP for health care is die young" nothings changed what a visionary!

What rock have you been living under. Most private companies eliminated employee pensions in the late 90's and left employees with 401K funds which were quickly eaten up in the economy crash in 2008. Most people working in the private sector do not have adequate retirement resources.

@John Wayne take a hit on this, too bad u never had a chance to work and live in America before the Alzheimer president aka 666 for Ronald Wilson Reagan became POTUS -CIC, The gripper 666 allowed BUSH 41 the VP and FORMER DIR of the CIA to use the basement of 1600 Penn Ave for Nicaraguan death squads (contras) running guns for Dope and vice versa with the hated Mullahs of Iran (hint see Argo) that ROBME 12 years later took on as partners in his BAIN PARTNERSHIP they used the old Air America drug smuggler OPERATION of the Golden Triangle under the command of the National Security advisor Bud McFarlane to the Pres and the Fox hero Col Ollie North who was pardoned for his treason about the same time the Demetia was past early stages,There are still plenty of NEO-CON- TPARTY criminals around who KNOW ABOUT North the contras and Gipper.
David Stockman 666 BUDGET DIR who as of Oct 2012 said " he was wrong on everything he did in the daze of ,"morning in MURKA " and added on the choices " Twit is a disaster," America got it right in Nov it took the GOP SUPPLY SIDE GURU 33 years.

Andrea, USURY is interest on a loan and has nothing to do with taxes and tolls. I hope you do not teach economics, civics, or even english, for that matter, since not only is that a common word most people should know, but it is certainly a word a teacher (of pretty much anything) should know. Anybody with a credit card, especially paying over 10% should be screaming usury to the SEC or maybe the Justice Department because with the prime rate so low, and mortgage rates tiny, and the interest we can RECEIVE on a saving account or even CD, it is blatantly USURIOUS that people are paying 15-25% on a credit card.
As Chauncey says, people make mostly what they are worth. The cost of living here is higher, but so are the wages. Most of the time, those two rates are commiserate with each other. People in Alabama earn much less, but houses and food and so on cost much less too. Alaska tends to make more, but it costs five dollars for a gallon of milk and you might have to wait for spring for specific supplies. There is almost always a trade-off for area versus cost. San Diego is awesome to live in, minus the expense of buying property. Wherever you go or are, there is a trade-off. Even North Dakota, as Chauncey mentions, is a frozen tundra five to eight months of the year (been there, know people who lives there) and for SOME weird reason, everybody gets cancer in the northern parts (near Minot)...all a matter of what people can tolerate or afford.

i HAVE RELATIVES FREEZING THEIR BUNS AND LIVING IN THEIR CARS IN ND.
No room in the Inn, no Inn they are mobbed with fereners and Murkans as well as Chicagans well some anyway big bucks big bills and no chance to collect SSA , it was a great run Chauncey up till the movie star played his biggest role!

@ Chauncey are u the famous chancy Gardner?
how bout Derrick Rose or Pat Kane in 16! One should be gov the other POTUS, both can get the 1 % vote and have the Media who do not even notice the DEMOPUBS and especially obstructionists are leading us to Euro austerity,Remember when news sold papers now we only get Gladiator and Bears news while the environment and consumers are being mauled by the TPARTY surrogates of poison and pollution they will soon bring to a vote more moronic anti abortion bills in this session of congress and prayers galore in place of a curb on AMMO and WMD, the Gun shows in Dixie prohibit loaded weapons inside them as THE home school and ammo land lobby want teachers to carry Glocks and M 4 CARBINES! As for a fiscally conny GOP POTUS-IKE and OBAMA!

@ Christine I think he was wise and visionary, a lot different than Pullman who built a town just east of Roseland on the South side for his workers it was no BAIN paradise but is still being occupied and is still viable and historic and has escaped the ravages of the South side.killing fields.

Butch, can i be honest with you? I never read your posts. They ramble on and on and make no sense whatsoever.

Your right, Butch is a frickin loser.